Maximising eating quality and profitability in sheep with David Packer

How do you breed a lamb that consistently delivers a better eating experience?

For decades, sheep producers have been selecting for traits they could easily measure, including growth, fertility and lean meat yield. But eating quality has remained far more difficult to quantify, despite being one of the biggest drivers of consumer satisfaction and long-term demand.

On this episode, Mark chats with David Packer, Program Manager – Carcass Value at Meat & Livestock Australia, to explore how advances in meat science are changing that.

David explains the biology behind meat quality, from intramuscular fat and tenderness through to electrical stimulation, cold shortening and physiological maturity. He also discusses why consumer taste panels remain the benchmark for eating quality research, and how new technologies are finally making it possible to measure commercially important traits at processing speeds.

Mark and David also discuss the results of the 2026 LambEx Carcass Showcase, where more than 5,300 lambs were benchmarked across multiple processors. The findings highlight substantial variation in eating quality and lean meat yield within every breed and production system, reinforcing the opportunity for genetic improvement rather than simple breed comparisons.

As carcass feedback becomes more widely available and objective measurements continue to improve, producers are gaining access to information that has the potential to refine breeding objectives, validate ram purchasing decisions and capture greater value throughout the supply chain.

Whether you're interested in genetics, processing, meat science or producing lambs that better meet consumer expectations, this episode shows just how rapidly objective carcass measurement is reshaping sheep breeding.

You can find more information on the lambEx Carcass Showcase here:

https://www.lambex.org.au/ampc-carcase-showcase-26

This episode is proudly brought to you by neXtgen Agri, in partnership with Meat and Livestock Australia.

We would appreciate it if you could take a moment to complete a short survey about the series. By participating, you’ll enter the draw to WIN a 1-hour online consultation with Mark Ferguson. 

https://forms.gle/9apCMhawfbGRyAUb8

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to the Productivity and Profitability Podcast, brought to you by Meet and Livestock Australia and NextGenagri International. I'm your host, Mark Ferguson, CEO here at NextGen Agri. This podcast is all about the Australian red meat industry, bringing you the latest information, practical tips, and stories from people doing remarkable things across the industry. There's no shortage of great people out there, and my job is to bring some of them into your farming day. Okay, let's get into this month's episode. Welcome back to the Productivity and Profitability Podcast brought to you by Meet and Lifestock Australia and NextGenAgri. I'm Mark Ferguson, CEO here at NextGen Agri, and great to be bringing this podcast to you wherever you happen to be listening today. This week on the show, we wanted to bring David Packer onto the show. We are fresh off Lamex 2026. What a fantastic event uh for the shape industry. And one of the features of that event was the KACA showcase, and David was heavily involved in analysing the data that came out of that showcase, which was a result of processing over 5,000 lambs across four states, across three different processing plants, bringing all that data together to sort of to demonstrate the range of AD quality out there. But a key part of that was bringing the data back to the producers who put those lambs in and giving that feedback back to the producer on those individual lambs that we've gone through that processing uh train. So, yeah, a really great showcase, a great event in LAMEX, and uh yeah, we wanted to bring you that information now. As you'll see here in the show, we we uh there's some results from that you can download from the from the showcase and see the variation exists. We cover all things around eating quality and carcass value with with Dave, his background, uh bit around MSA for LAM, MSA for beef, and I guess all the things that are happening there in Livestock Australia to improve the value of LAM to us to essentially bring bring that greater value back into producers' pockets. We won't waste any more time. We'll get underway with this month's show with David Packer. Welcome to Productivity and Profitability. David Packer.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, thanks, Mark. Really uh looking forward to having a chat today.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Excellent. Thanks, mate. Thanks for your time. Uh we're going to talk all things carcass value today, which is a good thing to talk about, considering you're the program manager of Carcass Value at Meat and Livestock Australia. Uh we might yeah, I guess start with your background and how you ended up where you are in the meat industry, and uh and then we'll get into I guess MSA more generally and then the LAMEX carcass showcase.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, great. So I um well came from agricultural roots and then um studied ag at uni in Armadale, actually, one of the uh UNE graduates, then went out in the big brave world um back into farming, but then uh ended up in the animal health space. Really had a passion for RD, but that all also exposed me to um the commercial side of running a business. So I was actually in the commercial side for nearly a decade in animal health space. At the core, though, I really enjoyed meat science back in my undergraduate degree, uh, thanks to John Thompson and Graham Gardner, who were lecturers back in those days. Uh, and then I went back and did some further research through UNE, which sort of connected me back into MLA a little bit. It was an MLA co-funded uh project, and I was actually asked to come into MLA to help uh with a a genetics adoption role. So that that's uh that brought me back into MLA. And then I was working in that produced adoption space for a few years actually, and um, and when the role came up with MSA, it made a um a really good um link to my passion and and my studies. And uh yeah, so I've been with MLA now for about nine years, and and uh over five of that's been with the MSA program, which is now called the Carcass Value Program. Um yeah, but really rewarding place to work, working with the best in the industry and trying to problem solve and help them uh create more value and and productivity.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, excellent. And a couple of uh big names in meat science in John Thompson and Graham Gardner. So obviously one of those blokes had a bit to do with I had a bit to do with my PhD as well. So that was um, yeah, no, great, great leaders in the game. Uh yeah, we'll we'll talk, I guess, for those who are listening who don't haven't heard of Meat Standards Australia or MSA as we kind of abbreviate it too. Obviously, uh it's strong roots in beef, but over the last probably a decade been sort of being modified towards lamb. I don't know how long that I know Pathic's been talking about a long time, but um but uh yeah, I guess yeah, why is it well we know why it's important, but maybe what it what it seeks to to ensure across the the value chain.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, so using the beef example, so that's it's been a commercially available for for uh almost 30 years in beef, and it's literally a eating quality segregation system. So before that we had no idea, we thought we did, we had no idea about what meat ate well versus average, and that therefore consumers they couldn't get any consistency in what they were paying for. So that was that underpinned the development of beef, and we understood that it's not just about marbling, it's about these other factors that you can measure on a carcass and how you prepare those animals and how you can process those animals and age those animals. So that that's um is is a very um, well, I shouldn't use the word mature for beef, but it's very well adopted in the beef game. There's still much more that we can squeeze out of the lemon in the beef space, but it's well understood and utilized by processes. I think in the beef space, it's almost 200 beef brands are underpinned by MSA. So that doesn't mean they put MSA as a marketing tool. They're they're using that that um system to segregate and go that cut or that body is is gonna meet my requirements for that brand, and that cut will go to that brand. It's a segregation tool, so it's less so about the trademark and the um marketing side of it. It's very much a tool that sits behind the scenes in the sheepmeat space. We've had a we call it a pathways program for sheep for MSA since 2007, but it doesn't, we didn't have a tool to segregate on eating quality. It was it was really a critical um control point process. So uh make sure the the lambs are finished. Probably the biggest intervention that that it was introduced to the lamb industry was the introduction of um electrical stimulation because we we found out that most of the lambs were basically cold shortened. So that was a big big issue. So the introduction of that through the MSA program really reduced the incidence of cold shortening and and helped accelerate the, I guess, provide more consistency consumers of lamb. But there was no tool or or MSA model that we have in beef available. The the the st you mentioned Dave Pethick, and and and he's um yeah, probably the the head of all things sheep and eating quality, and that started back in the days of the sheep CRC. So they started doing consumer eating quality research. Uh, I think CRC started in 2001. So they had a couple of programs of eating quality, and same as with beef. We use, I guess, our gold standard is consumers, so we don't use a machine like Shearforce or anything like that, not to say that they're wrong, but our gold standard, which we're training these models to, are consumers. So that work for sheep meat started a long time ago, and and we have had obviously breeding values for Shearforce, IMF, lean meat yield, all drivers of positive and negative for eating quality for some time as far as genetic evaluations. Our biggest issue was we didn't have any technologies that could actually measure those traits on lambs, and that's probably been the most the biggest holdup, given that some plants are 12 plus carcasses a minute. You couldn't measure IMF hot or cold because of the way we grade and the speed of those um carcasses are moving. And that that was probably the biggest handbrake, really, for MSA grading system. That's probably the biggest handbrake that we've seen uh or we overcome it as an industry, and that and that's been underpinned by industry investment, so collaboration through the ARMtech initiative. So that was MLA, AMPC, um, some private company funding, uh, some government funding um to really uh accelerate the development of that that those devices and and um and systems to um to enable MSA grading. And then I guess there's been a lot of work behind the scenes with a number of processors. We've got one processor here, Gunnar Guide um eProcessor. So they've they've been using those devices for a number of years and actually providing feedback, and they'll very innovative in taking that step first. Now got a number of other processors on that on that path. From an MSA perspective, Gunnar Guy are actually Gunnar Guide LAM are now grading all their LAM. So they're the first one to actually do that, though we have another uh at least three other supply chains on that same path and trajectory to both install the technologies and have that system to MSA grade and then they can segregate based on quality, but also that data can flow back to the um to the producer as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yeah, excellent. We'll get to that producer feedback, which is a key part of the showcase. The uh I just want to quickly dive into electrical stimulation because I think, yeah, it was a massive game changer, and I'm not I guess I'm not convinced that it's that widely spread outside of Australia, and I'm not well not sure on that, but yeah, obviously, yeah, maybe just talk us quickly through what that process does and and how it stops cold shortening and what cold shortening is, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

When animals are uh are slaughtered, they um I guess post-rigor the the the muscle goes through glycolysis and and and the glycogen's converting to lactic acid. So the pH that lactic acid introduction is um uh is reducing the pH of the muscle. So ideally, meat sits below five points, about 5.3 to 5.7. So in beef world, we have dark cutters, they're the ones that sit above 5.7. That process of chilling, though, you can actually make it go too quick or too slow based on how hot that that carcass and how quickly you make that process happen. So there's two things you've got dark cutting, which is a separate issue. Did they have enough glycogen or not to actually reach below 5.7? Whereas cold shortening is basically you can have heat shortening as well where you overstimulate. Ideally, you need to pass through a pH of six between 15 and 35 degrees. So it's basically getting that that level of chilling right at this at the rate of pH to climb. And if you do that, you chill them too quickly, that's cold shortening, leads to poor eating quality outcomes. Or if you do it, if you heat them too much, you basically cook them. We see that in heavy grain-fed bodies. So on the processing plant, you really need to um manage that so that those animals fall through that pH 6 window between uh 15 and 35 degrees. So what we found out, everything was getting well, not everything, majority was getting cold short, and they had the the the chillers turned up too fast, and um they weren't falling through that window. So electrical stimulation helps helps manage that that pH decline um post-slaughter. Um so that was a great introduction in into the lamb. Well, it's beef and lamb, really, getting that that pH uh full right.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yeah, and obviously a lot more efficiency as you can do it on demand rather than kind of yeah, having to manage the the biochemical process through. So you could speed the whole show up, which is which is what processing plants are all about, is about efficiency. If we uh yeah, obviously carcass feedback has has been uh yeah, something industry's been after for a long time, so we can people can only get better when they get the get information back back on farm. And I guess this year we expanded the the uh what was it, carcass competition into a carcass showcase at LAMEX and yeah, it was a a great uh a great event to bring together a heap of the industry players uh to on a on a common common goal and uh across the programme. So yeah, maybe just talk us through 5,300 lambs across four states, um I think we came from. Uh yeah, so just maybe just talk us through what that was and what we found.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, and th thanks to the three processes that that um yeah got involved too. So um, yeah, GMP, Wamco in Western Australia, and and and JBS Southern through their border town facility. So having more numbers gives us more confidence in what we're seeing in the data. Um, and and that was enabled this year. We've been benchmarking with supply chains for for a number of years now, helping them move towards grading and MSA systems. So what we saw wasn't too different from what we'd seen in in benchmarking those supply chains, but it's like any population, whether you look within breed or feed type or anything like that, the variation you've got good performers and bad performers. On average, it's the first time most of these producers, except for a handful of possibly Gundiguye producers, had seen how they're actually performing from an eating quality perspective. So we ran, we used the carcass traits that sit in that MSA sheet meat model to generate an MSA sheet meat index. So that's a proxy for eating quality, so they could see how they perform there on the actual traits themselves: lean meat yield and IMF. And I think we had 52 producers that went through, and I believe there was um there were five, five, there might have been one more, uh, producers that only were better than on average, they were better than the the cohort on eating quality and lean meat yield. And the reason I'm sort of pointing out those two different factors is because we need to keep an eye on both because lean meat yield is is and and eating quality are both drivers of carcass value. So if you take the same with genetics, you take your half-the ball on one, you're gonna dominate in one area and and and and and lower in the other area. And we've seen that already in our genetic evaluations. So it says to me there's still absolutely opportunity to improve um for for probably all producers. Yeah, while some did better on average than others, and and some of them sat really, I guess, above average for lean meat yield on eating quality. They still had some poor performing animals in that in that lot. But this really enabled the first time that some I'd say the majority of those producers understood actually how they're performing because they'd consciously or unconsciously been buying Rams with eating quality traits or no eating quality traits. So they yeah, I'd argue that they're probably finishing systems, they're probably fine-tuned pretty reasonably well to get to carcass spec as quickly as they can. But yeah, it was a really good, um, a really good uh, I guess, case study for how their genetic choices are coming through into their progeny um as well. So that's that's um a really great step forward. And and and I'd say, whilst it's not every lamb that's been benchmarked across the year, now we've actually got an industry benchmark. We can we can whereas before we might do 100 or 200 lambs in one supply chain, we might do 2,000 in another. We we sort of knew now we can go right, we've got the LAM uh LAMX carcass showcase. That's a that's a reasonable benchmark because we've got across four states, three processes. Um we've used different types of technologies to capture these traits. So it's um it's a great step forward. And um, yeah, I look forward to those other supply chains coming on. So that feedback will just be available on all carcasses um to land producers going forward.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yeah, which is feels like utopia, and we're heading towards it. And yeah, obviously the closest we've ever been is to that consistent feedback. I guess the one of the things that everyone wants to know, I guess, is like which breeds was the best, or was the grain finished best, was pasture finished best, and and I think it was a pretty clear normal distribution across all of all of those. There's good ones and bad ones across across every kind of combination.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, absolutely. And and I I made a point to to pull that out because it's the same story in beef, and not to discredit any certain breeds or or finishing systems in beef, but um we see the same thing. It doesn't matter what colour they are or how they are finished, as long as the the net nutrition's right to express those genetics and they've got the right genetics at the start of the day. And I think yeah, that's why we showed in those um those graphs which are available publicly now. They can go on the LAMEX website and see those. Didn't matter how they were finished or the breed. Um, yeah, there's variation there. So with variation, and as you'd know as a geneticist, that's that's opportunity. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and uh and a really exciting opportunity. The yeah, and we will in the show notes we'll put a link to that that information so people can jump on and have a look around and uh yeah, see for themselves what the the variation was. Yeah, I guess one of the one of the things that I guess the showcase allowed that we that isn't always standard practice other than that gunner guy meat processes is that linking linking the hook tracking essentially, which has always been a challenge. We've seen we've seen some some sort of steps forward recently in in the process starting getting closer to that hook tracking, which essentially is the underpinning. When now we've got the IMF sort of measurements um or technologies starting to mature, it's that hook tracking, which will be the next sort of step, and then we're we're basically away with with feedback to producers.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, absolutely. So Gunda Guy absolutely have have have got that right and they had a concerted effort to do that. Um, it was really matching that EID to the carcass, from what I understand in talking to the Gunda Guy team. They actually had a process to be able to track the carcass anyway in their plant because it's how their plant operates. Uh, other establishments, it definitely hasn't, it's not a new uh issue or priority. They've been trying to work through this for many years, and there's been various attempts using RFID technologies that just haven't worked. But they're looking at alternative ways to track those gambles across, well, firstly, match that EID to the carcass and then and then trace that gamble through the processing plan. And um uh those are at LAMEX would have seen JBS Southern had an example of how they they're trying to tackle that um using engraved QR codes. And from all reports, it's been working pretty well. So they're absolutely focused on getting that that um that hook tracking working because you're right, that is the enabler of individual carcass feedback, and it's it's very much front and center of well, we've got co-funded projects with some of those processes, and and that's a key part of the deliverables there. And then they're all slightly tacky in different manners, and there's some expertise um uh being brought in that that assisted with Gundaguy tackling their hook tracking. So um it's really come up the priorities in in probably in the last five years to make that work. The systems um to enable it, so you've got the hook tracking working, you've got the carcass traits being collected, IMF lean, meat yield, hot carcass weight, and then the MSA system. A number of those um processors have already got an MSA system for beef. So it's really it's quite a simple system to install that into their processing plant. So I'd say um I definitely wouldn't want to want to put a um timeline on it, but uh we've made a lot of progress in the last couple of years in in commitments from processes and investments taking place to enable that feedback um to Cumbra producers. We have as MLA the the My Feedback platform now, and I'd like to say, in the very near future, once everything's alright from a Gunda Guy point of view, it'll obviously already go through their GunnerGuy platform, but we've got the industry platform My Feedback, which is existing for VIF, so that that same sheet meat data will flow up into my feedback as well for producers. So um um it'll be available for benchmarking and and measuring where they can improve.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, excellent. And uh you mentioned the the tough quadrant, the leamat yield, or good you leam at yield, high leamat yield, high IMF quadrant, and that's obviously kind of one of them is anti-fat, and one of them is well favorably correlated fat ones negatively correlated with fat. And obviously, IMF for eating quality is is one of the drivers, not the only driver, but but leamat yield is all about processing efficiency and not not a heap of trim going through the works and basically making sure we get as much um edible product out there out there at the end of those processing works as we can.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's been a couple of studies in the beef world and it it it overlaps into the sheet meat world. It's um ultimately if you break it down a cut level, like a a um a primal cut, so as you said, an edible product. Um, it is if you you multiply across that body, it's it's um uh how much of that is there? You obviously want more yield, the more yield the better, but then that it's also gonna have that eating quality, which is attached to maybe a brand premium for etc. So the ultimate value of that carcass is driven by those two main drivers. So if you're you're lacking in one, it might eat well, but you're losing out on your yield. So it's it's important that uh you're making decisions that keep sight of both of those. And and obviously we've got we've got uh traits that that have existed for some time, being IMF shear force, lem meat yield is keeping an eye on those, that the indexes and the introduction of those traits in indexes over the last five or so years have definitely helped the improvement. And and we've seen genetically maintaining and growing yield as as a flock uh and turning around that negative trend of eating quality decline as well. So we're we're moving in the right direction genetically, and I think it's just producers being conscious on their RAM purchasing decisions to well, again, it's all trades balance. You've got all your productivity drivers on farm fertility production, etc. It's just having a conscious mind of going, right, oh well. If I'm buying this RAM, I don't probably don't need to be buying below average in eating quality or yield. I need to keep Build that balance in with my um uh with my into my breeding objective if they're not already doing it already.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah, and I guess lots of producers out there who are sort of might be buying a maternal RAM and a terminal RAM can kind of play different traits on different side teams as well a little bit. Obviously, lean mat yield you can really nail out of your out of those terminal rams, you get a good IMF, good lean mat yield terminal ram, you can kind of do a good job even if your maternals are not as focused on those two traits. So, yeah, there's there's good ways to swing them into your production system. One thing we were kind of keen to demonstrate in the showcase, which probably ended up not having enough time to really do, but I guess some of the one of the costs uh when you're sending a hundred lambs through, one of the if if many of them head down the the chute where they're gonna get a big lump chump um cut off them because the dog's bitten them or they've got grass seeds, or um do we see much variation in kind of downgrades in the across the showcase?

SPEAKER_01 22:54

To be honest, we haven't got down to within processor or producer analysis within the showcase. But what I'd say just from the work that we've done is everyone's got a problem. The systems to collect that information is not down to an individual body basis yet. So we're not going to get that feedback in the near term. It's down to a lot basis, and the process is collected by a human, and they've got a lot going on at that evisceration table. So for me, it's really a proxy for the incident. So, for example, liver fluke for example, it's it's yeah, it's higher or lower. Um, where do I come from? Do I come from the New England or do I come from somewhere or I shouldn't have liver fluke? So using that information, whether it's grass seeds, dog bites, disease, uh using that information with a grain of salt to go, right? Oh, should I be seeing can I can I make any management decisions going forward based off this information? Yeah, so uh the producers were provided that information. Um, and to be honest, we haven't gone into a deep dive of that really yet. Um, but it from a from a brief scan, that is is that is basically what we're seeing in processes coming through. It's definitely a place we need to evolve in the sheet meat space, and and we're looking at both technologies to be able to identify the incidents of it, so support the humans, uh, and also do that that matching back to the to the carcass as well, which is ultimately what's happened in beef now, but they're moving at a much slower pace. Um, so they're getting disease and defect information from some processes on an individual carcass basis, and that's what we're aiming towards uh in the sheet meat space. But for the time being, for those processes that are participating in that disease and defect space, they're getting a lot basis um treatment. So they're like out of a lot of 200, you got 10, yeah, uh, that out of foot, for example.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah. Yeah. Is there a something that this might be a tough question, or maybe not? I don't know. Is there something that you would sort of that you see a kill sheet and you go, oh they've still got that problem? Like is there something that's just recurring problem that we that really should get fixed, like putting a muzzle on dogs, or like is there something that we should just all have a standard practice that hide added?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

It's coming up everywhere, yeah. Um sheep and beef, actually, yeah. So um wormy dogs, manage wild dogs, foxes and things like that. Yeah, it's pop it's probably been the biggest surprise out of all of um um sheep and beef, actually. Yeah, um and easier said than done in managing the the non-domestic population, but yeah, it's probably something we need to keep an eye on. Um yeah, um definitely pops up in the data all the time. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

You mentioned technological technological advances in uh measurement IMF mostly. I don't know, there's three or four or maybe more different technologies. Uh anything new coming down the line, or um yeah, I guess we're just seeing those different technologies kind of go through the process of getting accredited or or getting tested and then accredited to for use in plant?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah, so IMS specifically, so there's two accredited devices, that's the microwave device and the MEQ probe. Um MEQ's been in a number of plants for a few years. Coming through the development probe, probably at the end of the development process, some of them. Uh, we've got another probe that's um um coming out of a company called MiniProbes, um, using slightly different technology to measure IMF than uh the MEQ probe. Uh and then there's uh the nuclear magnetic resonance NMR, NMR, sorry, uh out of New Zealand using um basically MRI to scan the loins of those carcasses. So they're they're another um company in development. And they've got prototypes sitting in some plants in Australia validating those, and hopefully both of those companies or devices will go through an accreditation process soon. So not to say we won't have any more IMF technologies and devices come through, but they're they're the ones either accredited or near term or will be in the near term from an eating quality perspective. And anyone that's hung around me for a while knows the story, it's not just about marbling. Um, definitely in the B space, we've shown like it's only 10 to 20% of the carcass, but we hang so much of our value and energy on marbling. It's a good marketing tool because people simply understand it. Um they don't have to come from the meat game. But if you're making decisions on eating quality, you shouldn't be pushing animals to perform well just because they don't have IMF or marbling. So for us as an eating quality program and um investing in in research and development, it's it's what else explains that variation in eating quality as well. So if we can take a sample of a carcass or even ideally when they're alive and understand what that gold standard, which is our consumer, what the relationship is it to, and then we can create a device or some measure that can happen to plants B, well, that's the ultimate. And one trait that that is exciting is coming out of the um the DEXA machine, so the Joule NNG X-ray. So some work out of Murdoch has shown that there's a relationship between one of the readings from those machines related to bone density. And I get in trouble for saying ossification because that's the beef measurement, but it's in a simple form, it's maybe picking up, yeah, maybe it's the concept that that that um calcification of um of cartilage, and basically um they're they're picking up variation in eating quality over and above marbling, over and above um lean meat yield as a as a as an indicator of eating quality. So uh that that is exciting because what that might mean for the sheep mate world is we can grade older animals. So we've currently got allowances for well, predictions for lamb and hogged. And if we had this bone density reading as well, um we could expand out to to all ages of animals, which is what we do in beef, um, because we've got that that extra measure of maturity of or physiological maturity of those animals. So for us, it's always searching for that new trait. Um, and as I've touched on before, finding that new trait which you can measure on a live animal is the most exciting. And and some of those companies are actually they've got devices that they're trying to um develop and um test on and get readings on live animals, sheep, and beef.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Yeah, I guess the cool thing about that potential technology and then in terms of bone density is yeah, hopefully we can get away from counting teeth or losing half the half the value of the carcass just because the a tooth can't a couple of teeth come up in a in a sheep if it's if we can get it like we can in beef, where it's kind of independent of what the teeth are up to, which is sort of the probably one of the not at the moment, maybe, where mutton's at crazy money as well. People are probably less stressed about it, but but uh normally it's a a big big cost over a for something that's not actually linked to meat quality, but it's the only way we can kind of have a rough audio of how old they are.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I I'd say the beef beef world's still got a fair evolution to go. There's some brand owners who absolutely use it very well, and I wouldn't say all carcasses, but a lot of carcasses that come through their plants are MSA graded, so they'll offer a premium on MSA cows because they're looking for those cows that that grade better eating quality, whereas traditionally they're straight into trim um or budget beef, whereas now they're extracting extra value from certain cuts of those cows and incentivising producers because they're getting the money out of these brands from the customer.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Yeah, I guess I mean the other trait that we've got genetically, but not in plan is is shear force, and we kind of all know that eating I mean half of what we value or I value anyway, when you're cut into a steak is how tender it is, and um it's obviously going to taste good, but if it melts in your mouth, it's pretty exciting. Obviously, we're not that's a pretty tough thing to get in chain, so we're sort of are we still pretty much reliant on genetics for shear force?

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, so so yes, it it's reasonably cheap from a from a measurement in the laboratory compared to doing consumer work, uh, even though a fair chunk of the MLA resource flock over a number of years has had both. They have we do the shear force and we do consumer work as well. So I've got an eye on both. There are companies that are looking at trying to measure that shear force in line. Um, for me, it's not about chasing the trait, it's again chasing the gold standard. But if we had a shear force measure, it'd just be a it'd let's say we we explain half the variation through the MSA model currently. You add shear force on that, you might explain a whole heap more. And you might need the bone density and you might need the lean meat yield. So still chase the gold standard. What explains variation in eating quality from a consumer perspective? But yes, shear force is is an important one. Um, and if we did get that inline measure, you wouldn't go and create a different grading system and just grade on IMF and shear force. The uh the ideal would be it'd just be another trait that you add in the MSA model, and there's possibly something like we didn't know about bone density five four years ago. Something else might pop up, but yes, shear force, there are uh there are one two. We've got two projects of companies that are um looking to see if they can find a uh correlation through what they're picking up in their spectra and um and uh and the shear force measurements.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Cool. Sounds exciting. Yeah, awesome, mate. Anything else new and exciting we want to talk about, or we've got them we've covered it.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

For the sheet made space, it's um yeah, absolutely. It's been um it's been a fair journey. Um, I guess that the probably I'm a lot more confident now that the industry is heading down this path and obviously the actions of a number of supply chains to start installing those those um technologies and and move down this path has really accelerated. And it's also evidenced by a number of brands starting to appear. Um, and it's only early days, and and I guess producers are saying, well, we see differentiation in pricing of our lambs. And that I believe that will come because the the brands are starting to be developed, and therefore the consumer will pay more, and then we'll need to supply those brands as well. So we're certainly with GMP, but there's a number of other supply chains that have launched their own brands. They're not MSA as such just yet, but they had an IMF device, so they could start to simply segregate. So, yeah, very encouraging to see those, those, those actions in place and credit to those supply chains that have taken that path. So for us, it's really um it's really about that commercialization part of it and supporting those supply chains. That's our focus as carcass value. Um, and then on the research side, anything that can that that can explain carcass value is is probably um we're very much interested in. So if they're research companies, um that's probably the next horizon. I know it's been talked and thought about for many, many years, but we'll probably get in a place where we're actually seeing some outcomes from those technologies. Yeah, and and I guess the other thing to keep in mind, and definitely an important part of industry and MLA programs, is it's not just about the actual primal yields, it's what else, what other value can we capture from those carcasses. Um, so we've seen the um, I guess the um the value add of various offals to make powders, col extracting collagen from hides, yeah, um other value-added products. So, and we're calling that the fifth quarter, but it's it's it's going to be a really important driver for extra value from the carcasses because we're only got one animal, and it's how much can you do with that animal? Um, and I guess that's the essence of carcass value and and value-based marketing. So, early days in that space, but some innovative supply chains and and and technology providers are really starting to come up with some pretty cool products that people are willing, well, consumers around the world are willing to pay a lot, lot more money than what would have been a just a hide or yeah, but um, which is now an up um, I guess a uh worth 50 to 100 times more as a a pure protein, a collision protein.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah, I guess we unfortunately we can't make them all all racks and loins. We have to do something with the rest of the rest of the animals. So yeah, the uh yeah. No, thanks very much, Dave. It's been great to hear all that's going on there at MLA and all that's uh all that's happening, and it's all that will be happening. Thanks very much for the massive support for the for the uh Lamax showcase. It was great to a whole team of industry to come together to um achieve that outcome, and I'm sure uh it'll be bigger and better next time, hopefully, it's uh as we get more of the industry involved and and hone that process. But yeah, thanks very much for your time and uh yeah, look forward to seeing some of those technologies uh in plant and delivering back to producers.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yeah, thanks Martin. Thanks for having me on today.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Cheers, mate. And that's a wrap on another episode. Thanks for listening. We truly hope you got something out of it. Head over to the MLA website for tools and resources to help you be at your best. Links are in the show notes. If you're after some more listening, I also host the Head Shepherd podcast, where we go deep on genetics and livestock management. Search for Head Shepherd wherever you're listening to this. See you next episode.